baskin έγραψε:Από το wiki δεν σβήνεται τίποτα, έχει revisions. Μπορείς να επαναφέρεις οτιδήποτε.
Τι σβήστηκε, πρώτη φορά το ακούω.
Η υπογραφή μου είναι για αυτούς που δεν καταλαβαίνουν τα αυτονόητα.
Θελεις μηνυση?
Αποστολή: Δεκέμβριος 6th, 2012, 8:22 pm
Από: theofanis1987
Προς: baskin
Θελεις μηνυση? Θα την εχεις............... Ναι δουμε ποιος μετα θα πρεπει να φοβαται και ποιος οχι.
gounara έγραψε:γιατι αλλαξες το baskinsy σε baskin ?
baskin έγραψε:Ήταν πιασμένο το baskin, όπως και στο twitter. Όπου δεν παίζει το baskin, βάζω baskinsy.
Σε κάλυψα;
Josef Ohlsson Collentine <josef@piratetimes.net>
3:14 AM (17 minutes ago)
to Internal
PPUK left the PPEU formation and PPGR had some internal problems. Seems like a good article if someone is able to write it together?
16:31 < davidd> the greek president told the meeting that gregory's mandate wasnt admitted
16:31 < davidd> but the next day he continued using it
16:32 < davidd> the greek president resigned from the greek board
16:32 < davidd> over this issue
16:29 < M2Ys4U> If I knew the PPGR stuff was going to hit the fan, I wouldn't have let Gregory have the delegation but 1) I didn't have time to check board minutes
etc.; 2) I had an e-mail from a member of the board giving authorisation; 3) how each party assigns its delegation wasn't really my business as the
conf organiser
16:36 < M2Ys4U> davidd: The original e-mail giving Gregory the delegation was from Mariotti Giorgio. Adrian Pappas was the person who raised the... questionably nature of the delegation
16:36 < M2Ys4U> questionable *
16:37 < davidd> yes that is the information i had too
16:37 < M2Ys4U> [17:01:28] [-] [pappasadrian] as i already mentioned, this is not as much a problem of this conference, as it is an internal issue of PP-GR, apparently
16:37 < M2Ys4U> [17:01:39] [-] [pappasadrian] do as you will
16:37 < M2Ys4U> [17:02:08] [-] [awkorama] I reckon PP-EU has no means of checking the inner workings of every other pirate parties
16:37 < M2Ys4U> [17:02:30] [-] [pappasadrian] yes, and that's why im not asking for a cancellation of the delegation or anything
16:38 < M2Ys4U> so... that's, basically, all of the information I had to go on.
PPGR decision on the issue (english at bottom)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: giorgos nikolaoy <detonboy@gmail.com>
Date: 2012/12/6
Subject: Fwd: Pirate Party of Greece Arbitration Committee
To: contact@piratetimes.net
---------- Προωθημένο μήνυμα ----------
Από: giorgos nikolaoy <detonboy@gmail.com>
Ημερομηνία: 6 Δεκεμβρίου 2012 10:59 π.μ.
Θέμα: Pirate Party of Greece Arbitration Committee
Προς: "coa@pp-international.net" <coa@pp-international.net>
Απόφαση Ε.Δ. για την εκπροσώπηση στο PP-EU.
Δημοσίευσηαπό baskin » 06 Δεκ 2012, 23:51
ΑΠΟΦΑΣΗ ΤΗΣ ΕΠΙΤΡΟΠΗΣ ΔΙΑΙΤΗΣΙΑΣ ΤΟΥ ΚΟΜΜΑΤΟΣ ΠΕΙΡΑΤΩΝ ΕΛΛΑΔΑΣ
Μετά την από 5-12-2012 απάντηση της ΔΕ στην ερώτηση της ΕΔ για την λήψη απόφασης όσον αφορά την εκπροσώπησή μας στο συνέδριο του PPEU στο Manchester , η ΕΔ συνεδρίασε σε πλήρη σύνθεση και με ομοφωνία αποφάσισε τα εξής:
1. Ακυρώνει βάσει του αρ. 8.3.7 του Καταστατικού την εν λόγω απόφαση για την ανάθεση της εκπροσώπησης του PP-GR στο Συνέδριο του Manchester, καθώς δεν υπήρξε σύγκληση της ΔΕ και λήψη απόφασης, σύμφωνα με το Καταστατικό (ανοικτή συνεδρίαση), αλλά κατά παράβαση κάθε έννοιας διαφάνειας η απόφαση λήφθηκε τόσο με αποστολή e-mail όσο και τηλεφωνικά, χωρίς μάλιστα να διευκρινίζεται πώς εκφράστηκε η αρνητική ψήφος (ελλείψει πρακτικών). Η σύμφωνη με το Καταστατικό σύγκληση του οργάνου δεν αποτελεί μια τυπική διάταξη, αλλά κρίσιμη για την εγκυρότητα των αποφάσεων πρόβλεψη του Καταστατικού που υπηρετεί την αρχή της διαφάνειας.
Θεωρούμε τον επείγοντα χαρακτήρα της απόφασης αδικαιολόγητο, καθότι οι ημερομηνίες του συνεδρίου του PP-EU είχαν ανακοινωθεί μήνες νωρίτερα. Επίσης δεν εξετάστηκε η δυνατότητα του remote delegation στην περίπτωση που δεν θα μπορούσε να παραστεί μέλος μας αυτοπροσώπως, μια δυνατότητα βάσει κανονισμού γνωστού ήδη από το συνέδριο της Βαρκελώνης, o οποίος παρέμεινε ίδιος σε αυτό το σημείο και για το συνέδριο του Manchester.
2.Διαβιβάζει την εν λόγω απόφαση, μέσω της Δ.Ε., στο Προεδρείο του Συνεδρίου του PP-EU στο Manchester και στο προεδρείο του PPI.
Η επιτροπη διαιτησιας του Κομματος Πειρατων Ελλαδας
Προκοπίδης Χριστόφορος
Στράτος Ζολώτας
Αθανασόπουλος Παναγιώτης
Παπαναστάσης Γιάννης
Περαντζάκης Βασίλειος
Ακολουθεί το κείμενο στα αγγλικά για την αποστολή στο PP-EU και το PPI
Pirate Party of Greece
Arbitration Committee
As a result of the Board Committees’ (from here on referred to as BC) reply to our inquiry regarding the representation of our party to the PP-EU Manchester conference dated 5/12/2012, the Arbitration Committee (from here on referred to as AC) has met in full composition and unanimously decided the following:
1) To nullify, based on article 8.3.7 of the Statute, the aforementioned decision regarding the representation of PP-GR to the Manchester conference, since the BC did not convoke the mandatory official, open meeting required to make such a decision according to our Statute. Instead, and against the very principle of transparency, the agreement was reached via email and phone calls, moreover without specifying the means the negative vote was expressed. The convocation of the meetings of this Body in accordance to the Statute is not a trite ordinance, but an indispensable, for the validity of all decisions, Statute provision that safeguards transparency.
We find the urgency of the decision unjustified, since the PP-EU conference dates have been announced months in advance. Moreover, and in the eventuality that a PP-GR member could not attend in person, the possibility of remote delegation was not taken in consideration, despite being an already known and viable option since the Barcelona conference.
2) To forward this decision to the Manchester PP-EU Conference Chairman and to the PPI Board Committee for informational purposes.
The Pirate Party of Greece Arbitration Committee
Προκοπίδης Χριστόφορος / Christoforos Prokopidis
Ζολώτας Στράτος / Stratos Zolotas
Αθανασόπουλος Παναγιώτης/ Athanasopoulos Panagiotis
Παπαναστάσης Γιάννης/ Yiannis Papanastasis
Περαντζάκης Βασίλειος/ Vasileios Perantzakis
baskin
Μέλος του Κόμματος Πειρατών Ελλάδας
Δημοσιεύσεις: 3933
Εγγραφή: 23 Δεκ 2011, 22:28
Τοποθεσία: Σύρος, Κυκλάδες
https://pirateparty.gr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=134&t=2996
(5:06:17 PM) Sophia: Help !
(5:06:31 PM) Ikke: damsel in distress
(5:06:46 PM) Ikke: do I look like a knight in shining armor?
(5:06:51 PM) davidd: yes Ikke you do
(5:07:07 PM) Sophia: Whom do I adress to have a group registered with PPI ?
(5:07:19 PM) davidd: do you have twitter?
(5:07:25 PM) Ikke: the board I suppose
(5:08:04 PM) Sophia: Doń´t shine too much i hanvńt got my sunglasses on
(5:08:08 PM) davidd: Ikke what is the emailadress?
(5:08:36 PM) Sophia: f course I have twitter
(5:08:50 PM) davidd: send a tweet to @falkvinge
(5:09:10 PM) davidd: he'll point you to the right people
(5:09:12 PM) Ikke: good question davidd
(5:09:13 PM) Sophia: Ah, thanks
(5:09:33 PM) Ikke: dichter: you got work
(5:09:39 PM) Sophia: Thanks a lot
(5:09:49 PM) Ikke: dichter is engels right
(5:09:53 PM) davidd: dichter hardly ever reads this channel
(5:10:04 PM) davidd: i once got an anwser 3 days later
(5:10:06 PM) Ikke: the one who represents shell parties he sets up through ppi
(5:10:09 PM) Ikke: ok
(5:10:40 PM) Ikke: so he can bring the germans more votes in the ppeu formation process
(5:10:41 PM) davidd: but yes
(5:10:52 PM) Ikke: and all the other parties are leaving the ppeu cause of that asshattery
(5:10:56 PM) Ikke: that's you right dichter
(5:11:42 PM) davidd: dichter is gregory engels
(5:11:49 PM) Ikke: yes I wouldn't come here often either if I ere him lol
(5:11:51 PM) Ikke: were*
(5:12:11 PM) davidd: i heard something about ppch leaving
(5:12:15 PM) Ikke: ya
(5:12:16 PM) davidd: you know more about that Ikke?
(5:12:21 PM) Ikke: it's on the ppeu list
(5:12:24 PM) Ikke: no not really
(5:12:31 PM) Ikke: just that they do what the ppuk did
(5:12:37 PM) Ikke: they had enough too
(5:12:44 PM) Ikke: we should leave as well
(5:12:52 PM) Ikke: as ppnl
(5:13:46 PM) Ikke: if the germans are so desperate for power they use ppi to set up shell parties and then lobby them to be their 'representation' in the ppeu process
(5:14:00 PM) Ikke: take ppgr for example
(5:14:16 PM) Ikke: they mail 2 days before the manchester conference
(5:14:24 PM) Ikke: that they want to represent greece
(5:14:29 PM) Ikke: to ppgr
(5:14:59 PM) Ikke: 3 of the board say yes, 1 no, 3 abstain, hence 3/7 yes = failed
(5:15:28 PM) Ikke: not that that bothers dichter, he happily goes to manchester for ppgr
(5:15:31 PM) Ikke: and the funny part is
(5:15:52 PM) Ikke: ppgr didn't give him any instrcutions, but dare not say no because that would jeapordize their international relations
(5:16:02 PM) Ikke: being that dichter is co-president of the ppi
(5:17:22 PM) Ikke: seriously, we should sever our ties to these people
(5:18:10 PM) davidd: allthough i dont have high hopes for ppeu on the short term
(5:18:22 PM) davidd: i am not sure severing ties would make things better
(5:19:20 PM) Ikke: they readily abandon principles of open collaboration, transparancy and so on on such a relatively trivial matter as founding a european party
(5:19:21 PM) davidd: perhaps it is smarter to limit representing other nations to precommitted votes
(5:19:45 PM) Ikke: these people should not have a place in our midst
(5:19:49 PM) davidd: and not include those delegates to vote on unannounced procedural motions
(5:20:39 PM) Ikke: we should leave the lack of rules in tact so we can pick this sort out in a heartbeat and deal with them
(5:20:46 PM) Sophia: I'm astounted by your talks
(5:21:16 PM) davidd: there was a very ineffective ppeu meeting in manchester this weekend
(5:21:23 PM) Sophia: Yes
(5:21:34 PM) davidd: they got less than 10% planned done
(5:22:08 PM) davidd: the objectives of the ppeu are not clear
(5:22:15 PM) Sophia: I'heard they've agreed one sovereign state only one vote
(5:22:17 PM) davidd: as they are multiple
(5:22:39 PM) davidd: there are 2 reasons to start ppeu
(5:22:51 PM) Sophia: Money and ?
(5:23:09 PM) davidd: 1. non eu states are being fed up with ppi being almost exclusively about eu stuff
(5:23:48 PM) davidd: 2. upcoming euparliament elections in 17 months
(5:24:02 PM) Sophia: What do you mean exclusively about eu stuff ?
(5:24:27 PM) davidd: australia and canada have active pirateparties too
(5:24:47 PM) Sophia: I'm from france et they never tell us about PPI
(5:24:49 PM) Ikke: well, the european pirae parties are national parties, but we are in the european union which is holding increasing sway over the nations
(5:24:52 PM) davidd: but they can do almost nothing with most discussions in ppi
(5:25:02 PM) Ikke: so ppi was neccesary for the european parties to collaborate on that level
(5:25:16 PM) Ikke: however, it was foudned for worldwide parties
(5:25:28 PM) Ikke: so they were rather fed up with the eu-centrism
(5:25:31 PM) Ikke: hence ppeu
(5:25:38 PM) M2Ys4U: If I knew the PPGR stuff was going to hit the fan, I wouldn't have let Gregory have the delegation but 1) I didn't have time to check board minutes etc.; 2) I had an e-mail from a member of the board giving authorisation; 3) how each party assigns its delegation wasn't really my business as the conf organiser
(5:25:44 PM) davidd: but why not respect #ppi
(5:25:51 PM) davidd: and discuss this in #ppeu ?
(5:26:00 PM) davidd: ^^^
(5:26:02 PM) Sophia: I'm a member of an ethnic minirity we dońt agree with one state one vote
(5:27:24 PM) davidd: M2Ys4U well
(5:27:26 PM) Sophia: Why, the reason I'm still on #PPI is at least here I find answers and, otherwise...
(5:27:35 PM) M2Ys4U: it should be noted that the asshattery in PPEU is the same (but probably to a lesser extent) that's been happening in PPI for a while now
(5:27:51 PM) davidd: the greek president told the meeting that gregory's mandate wasnt admitted
(5:28:01 PM) davidd: but the next day he continued using it
(5:28:13 PM) davidd: the greek president resigned from the greek board
(5:28:19 PM) davidd: over this issue
(5:28:21 PM) Sophia: I want to build a group afiliated with PPI, no PPEU
(5:28:34 PM) Ikke: why choose the ethnic division, you could also fall divided based on income category as the socialst propose. Or you can fall divided based on religion, eye color I mean, be creative in the way you divide and conquer yourselfs
(5:28:52 PM) M2Ys4U: davidd: I was told, explicitly, that GR wasn't revoking the delegation
(5:29:38 PM) davidd: from that same board member that initially told you that gregory had the mandate?
(5:29:45 PM) davidd: or from a different board memebr?
(5:29:59 PM) Sophia: Anyway, it won ´t be called Ethnic minoryties but "Alternate minoryties",
(5:30:10 PM) davidd: btw thx for organising M2Ys4U
(5:30:22 PM) Sophia: How do you spell it ?
(5:30:25 PM) davidd: i followed some via the ustream
(5:32:21 PM) M2Ys4U: davidd: The original e-mail giving Gregory the delegation was from Mariotti Giorgio. Adrian Pappas was the person who raised the... questionably nature of the delegation
(5:32:29 PM) M2Ys4U: questionable *
(5:33:34 PM) davidd: yes that is the information i had too
(5:33:51 PM) M2Ys4U: [17:01:28] [-] [pappasadrian] as i already mentioned, this is not as much a problem of this conference, as it is an internal issue of PP-GR, apparently
(5:33:54 PM) M2Ys4U: [17:01:39] [-] [pappasadrian] do as you will
(5:33:56 PM) M2Ys4U: [17:02:08] [-] [awkorama] I reckon PP-EU has no means of checking the inner workings of every other pirate parties
(5:33:59 PM) M2Ys4U: [17:02:30] [-] [pappasadrian] yes, and that's why im not asking for a cancellation of the delegation or anything
(5:34:12 PM) M2Ys4U: so... that's, basically, all of the information I had to go on.
(5:34:19 PM) davidd: ok, yes i see
(5:34:42 PM) davidd: thx for clearing that op
(5:36:31 PM) M2Ys4U: and davidd: No problem, I'm enthusiastic about having a potential PPEU so I was happy to organise
(5:36:38 PM) M2Ys4U: it's just a shame that there's so much fucking around
(5:37:49 PM) davidd: people were seeing the decisions being made to much as casted in concrete
(5:39:18 PM) Ikke: the problem is that the focus is on negative action, without positive initiative to coutnerbalance it
(5:39:26 PM) Ikke: a common amongst pirate parties
(5:39:28 PM) Ikke: =P
<Mozart> pappasadrian:
<Mozart> You here?
<pappasadrian> heya
<pappasadrian> strangely enough, i am
<Mozart>
<pappasadrian> what's up?
* Mozart has been reading emails.
<pappasadrian> aah
<Mozart> What does this PPGR email mean?
<pappasadrian> PPGR email?
<Mozart> "As a result of the Board Committees’ (from here on referred to as BC) reply to our inquiry regarding the representation of our party to the PP-EU Manchester conference dated 5/12/2012, the Arbitration Committee (from here on referred to as AC) has met in full composition and unanimously decided the following:
<Mozart> 1) To nullify, based on article 8.3.7 of the Statute, the aforementioned decision regarding the representation of PP-GR to the Manchester conference, since the BC did not convoke the mandatory official, open meeting required to make such a decision according to our Statute."
<pappasadrian> did they send it officially after al?
<Mozart> Is that nullifying Engel's position as PPGR's delegate to PPEU?
<pappasadrian> simple english -> PP-GR's delegate at Manchester's assembly, Gregory Engels, wasnt legitimately appointed
<pappasadrian> so the delegation is null
<Mozart> Awesome.
<pappasadrian> awesome?
<Mozart> I heard PPGR weren't allowed proper participation or something?
<Mozart> Awesome -> Your help was awesome.
<pappasadrian> what do you mean, proper participation?
<Mozart> They weren't allowed to send their own delegate.
<pappasadrian> not exactly
<pappasadrian> well, it's a weird story
<pappasadrian> i can tell you, if you have time
<pappasadrian> i suppose that's a "no"
<Mozart> I do indeed have time.
<pappasadrian> fair enough
<pappasadrian> okay, some background information at first
<pappasadrian> 1) one of the core values of PPGR is direct democracy
<pappasadrian> based on this, we've built our statute in a way that channels most (if not all) the decision-making to the base - the members of ppgr
<pappasadrian> the board only exists for typical reasons, and for representing the party and its opinions
<pappasadrian> except in urgent situations, where the board is entitled to taking decisions, which must get approved by the members later
<Mozart> Yeah, we've got a clause like that.
<pappasadrian> 2) before the ppeu incident, ppgr had a lot going on
<pappasadrian> mostly ideologically speaking
<pappasadrian> about people sending press releases in the name of the party that werent approved, etc
<pappasadrian> so most, if not all the members, didnt care too much about ppeu works
<pappasadrian> so
* Ikke (~Thijs_Mar@34-561-052-91.ip.telfort.nl) has joined #ppgr
<pappasadrian> wait, i need dates..
<Ikke> I heard there is a party here
<pappasadrian> indeed, but dont troll
<pappasadrian> anyway
<pappasadrian> tuesday, Nov. 27th, Mariotti sends an email to the board
<Ikke> are you asking for it
<Ikke> mozart gonna do a write up?
<pappasadrian> informing the rest of the board that engels has asked for a delegation from ppgr for the manchester conference, without much further explanation
<Mozart> Ikke: nah.
<pappasadrian> i asked for some explanations, such as what's the point of being represented if the party doesnt have an official position on ppeu issues, and i mentioned the problem about engel's "overdelegation" at barcelona, and some other points
<pappasadrian> mariotti answered that i was miserable about the issue
<pappasadrian> and that engels is a key person at ppi and ppeu, and that he doesnt want to break his relations with him
<pappasadrian> anyway, another member of the board also raised questions, but was convinced by mariotti, so he agreed to the delegation
<pappasadrian> a third member of the board just said "ok"
<pappasadrian> so we have 3 yes' and 1 no (me) so far
<pappasadrian> as i said at the conference, the other 3 didnt bother to answer
<pappasadrian> anyway, after several days of investigation in ppgr
<pappasadrian> we figured out that 2 others have said ok via personal email to mariotti
<pappasadrian> and the last one (of 7) said ok on the phone
<pappasadrian> nevertheless, apparently there wasnt any clarity on this
<pappasadrian> nobody could see how the decision was taken, except perhaps mariotti
<pappasadrian> anyway
<pappasadrian> the arbitration court of ppgr decided earlier today that this decision was null because it wasnt an open meeting of the board, as it is mandated by our statute
<pappasadrian> and it wasnt an urgent issue, since manchester's conference was announced months ago
<pappasadrian> oh, and ppgr wasnt informed at all about the possibility of remote delegation
<pappasadrian> *i mean, the rest of the board wasnt informed
<pappasadrian> idk if mariotti knew or not
<pappasadrian> that's about it
<pappasadrian> oh, and, just to be clear, i wasnt the president of the board during the incident, as davidd mentioned in #ppi
<pappasadrian> and as of saturday night, im not on the board anymore
<pappasadrian> and im also not a member of ppgr
<pappasadrian> and just fyi, there's a huge shitstorm about this in ppgr
<pappasadrian> idk when it will settle down
<pappasadrian> Mozart: ?
<Mozart> Just absorbing it.
<Mozart> Your party appears to be collapsing…
<Mozart> Why aren't you a member anymore?
<pappasadrian> basically because of the lack of transparency, and the lack of many members to embrace our core values (such as copyright reform, open source, direct democracy)
<pappasadrian> it was getting tiring
<pappasadrian> i've been constantly fighting such issues for the past 2 or 3 months
<pappasadrian> but this particular incident was just too much
<Mozart> Pity
<pappasadrian> because basically, after tuesday the 27th, i was left to believe that we'd discuss the topic about our delegation further
<Ikke> lets all just get together and buy a greek island and raid the mediterranean
<pappasadrian> since 2 members of the board had questions
<pappasadrian> but then i see ppgr being represented by engels on saturday
<pappasadrian> and i was asking "wtf?" everywhere
<pappasadrian> i was trying to find out what happened
<pappasadrian> none from the rest of the board answered to an email i sent
<Mozart> …
<Mozart> So…you quit?
<pappasadrian> yep
<pappasadrian> i'm better off putting my free time on OSS or EFF or something like that
<pappasadrian> politics is... well... politics
<pappasadrian> the board has been trying to cover this up for 5 days now
<Mozart> Yuck.
<pappasadrian> but they've failed so far
<pappasadrian> anyway, i dont think ppgr will collapse
<pappasadrian> but it sure is in the middle of its biggest crisis
<pappasadrian> (so far)
<Ikke> but these problems seem to be recurrant throughout the pirate parties
<pappasadrian> yes
<Ikke> we just need some guidelines set up I think
<pappasadrian> indeed
<pappasadrian> it's sad
<Ikke> but hell
<Ikke> the in/outflow is too high
<pappasadrian> i think it's like chickenpox
<pappasadrian> everyone has to go through it
<pappasadrian> it was too much for me, though
<Ikke> hence why I must go to bed
<pappasadrian> ah, +1
<pappasadrian> Mozart: i hope i was clear enough
<Mozart> Yeah, that was fine.
<Mozart> It's good to know what's going on.
<pappasadrian> well, that's how i see things
<pappasadrian> i'm pretty sure you'll hear more versions of the story if you ask in ppgr
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