Γιατί μας εκπροσωπεί ο Gregory Engels;

[baskin]

Οι άρχοντες της διαφάνειας ξαναχτυπούν και οι αρνητές τις ανάθεσης (στο liquid) έχουν πάθει σχιζοφρενική διπολικότητα.

Αν δεν καταλαβαίνετε πόσο γελοίοι έχετε γίνει, τι να πω...

Από αύριο θα ασχοληθώ με το θέμα, μιας και πρέπει να είμαι off-line σήμερα (ναι το κάνω και αυτό).

[Rainmaker]

Αν δεν καταλαβαίνετε πόσο γελοίοι έχετε γίνει, τι να πω...

το ίδιο μπορεί να λένε κι εκείνοι για σένα...

[baskin]

Δεν έχω κανένα πρόβλημα. Η διαφορά μας είναι ότι εγώ μιλάω δημόσια και δεν παίρνω αποφάσεις για όλο το κόμμα εν κρυπτώ...

[Κομπειλάδας]

Τελικά τι έχει γίνει, μας εξέθεσε ο επιλεγμένος Εκπρόσωπος ή οι αυτοχρισθέντες Εκπρόσωποι?

Από το chat στο pad εργασίας: https://eu.piratenpad.de/Manchester-2012?

19:52 Muriel Rovira Esteva [PPCAT]: is also something that demands a lot of resources from the parties
19:53 Muriel Rovira Esteva [PPCAT]: if many of them are not even able to send a delegate to the meetings, I doubt they could find someone familiar with laws and objective that spoke english fluently and that was willing to commint to do this job at the PPEU
19:54 unnamed: You believe politics simpler than it really is...
19:55 Justus Römeth [PPDE]: I am obviously not there, so this is just an outsiders' opinion, but if any other 'red lines' exist for PPUK or other parties it would be much fairer if they would be in the open before they come up. This is a friendly, grassroots-democracy political movement trying to found an organization, not hard-core diplomacy imo.
19:55 HerNenya [PP-GAL]: It should be simple, unfortunately it is not.
19:56 LunaLoof: If I had known that this would be such a contentious issue, I wouldn't have put it on the start of the Agenda.
19:57 HerNenya [PP-GAL]: well, I think everything should be treated
19:57 unnamed: Justus... I would not call it that after Prague and CoA folly plus Board manipulation.
19:58 Justus Römeth [PPNDS]: the hope was that ppeu would be different from ppi... oh well
19:58 unnamed: Hope... is cheap.
19:59 Mab PP-SE: it will be
19:59 HerNenya [PP-GAL]: we are pirates, don't lose your hope and try to move forward
20:00 unnamed: Oh, mine is intact.
20:00 Matic Urbanija (PP-SI): https://eu.piratenpad.de/Manchester-2012-Agenda
20:01 Mab PP-SE: the problem is that we are reusing the procedures of PPI in our process of forming PPEU. But as noone like how PPI turned out that only mean that in the end whatever comes out as the final suggestion from this process will loose in the end against a counterproosal that has been drafted with a more suitable method
20:01 Mab PP-SE: that doesnt not mean that the process as such is pointless thpouh
20:02 Mab PP-SE: *though
20:03 Mab PP-SE: see it as a practical excercise in diplomacy
20:03 Patrick Schiffer (PPDE): +1
20:03 Justus Römeth [PPNDS]: Some of us could use that, so yeah!
20:03 unnamed: Got plenty
20:03 Justus Römeth [PPNDS]: The problem is just that everybody seems to expect these meetings to go at least as well as the national meetings
20:04 Martin Tibensky (PP-SK): justus> and they do (at least for my case)
20:04 Patrick Schiffer (PPDE): you're doing a great job, keep on! I've expected a much lower speed
20:05 Justus Römeth [PPNDS]: I was noit disappointed in rome because I expected a lot of problems to be had. Because a lot of good ideas got around anyways it was a good weekend... whether those were produced during official talk or over lunch imo is secondary
20:06 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): it just unfair that we now get kicked out just because Gregory is stubborn
20:08 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): Thomas: I will ignore this statement. And I am not stubborn, nothing could be further from the thruth.
20:08 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): you try to push the CoA against all consequences... that is stubbor
20:08 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): if you wouldnt have your multiple delegations the initial vote would already have been unsuccessfull
20:09 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): German pirates represent again 5 votes...
20:09 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): no, its wise. we see the experiences of PPI and other bodies that do not have a functioning conflict resolution mechanism, how difficult it is to implement it later
20:09 unnamed: Backbench manoeuvering... again?
20:10 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): PPI showed that a CoA does not work
20:10 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): PPI showed, that the peiople who suggest things should do a complete work
20:10 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): you see what it gets you...
20:11 unnamed: A lotb of things do not work. They made a mess that should be cleaned up, not aborted with a status quo.
20:11 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): Thomas: and which countries specifically are you accusing of being german sockpuppets?
20:11 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): and by the way, i do not represent germany here at all. I was not even at the german pereparation meeting to this conference.
20:12 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): ask your fellow delegates
20:12 HerNenya [PP-GAL]: please, keep calm
20:12 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): but i have met with PP-GR, PP-RU, PP-UA and PP-KZ boards for consultations
20:12 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): nono, this is a turning point... PP-UK already basically said its over for them
20:13 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): MAB++
20:13 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): As an official delegate I really must object on the accusation you just made.
20:13 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): I really don't care gregory, you overstreatched the others patience by quite a lot...
20:13 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): why do you think the procedures had a limit to 2 people`? because you abused it
20:14 unnamed: More than once...
20:14 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): you see gregrory, everyone sees that but you
20:17 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): thomas - no, this is not true.
20:18 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): you just must acceppt, that there are different opinions in europe and that some pirate parties do not share your views
20:18 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): you certainly play with your credibility
20:19 unnamed: Maybe we do not want to share some ways of doing things...
20:19 unnamed: ... outside of expected logic and ethic.
20:20 unnamed: If we do care about core pirate values.
20:22 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): Thomas: what should I have done with countries that asked me to represent them here at the conference? (and at the last conference)?
20:22 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): Thomas: should i have said, that sorry, some people dont like delegation, better do not participate?
20:23 unnamed: Try not to monopolize such a central position, and they might have other people to choose from.
20:24 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): well - this is what i have suggested - two of them are represented by bastian
20:24 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): since i am allowed to handle only two delegated vote
20:24 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): remote delegation...
20:24 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): they have language barriers
20:25 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): how should they particpate like that?
20:25 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): and they have found out, that remote is not workin properly
20:25 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): seriously, there needs some minimum requirement... at least on person speaking english is no high requirement
20:25 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): the time delay is just to long for them to voice their opinion properly
20:25 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): why?
20:26 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): you hurt the cause gregory, and you are not even understanding it, and that is very bad
20:27 unnamed: Spain could be playing this game with a lot of latin american Pirate Parties too... if needed.
20:27 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): not in EU but in PPI
20:28 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): actually it is quite hard to find properly english speaking people in kazakhstan
20:29 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): Thomas: I think that you have a very limited view on how other political parties operate outside of core yurope
20:29 unnamed: Then find some kazakh speaking people abroad that can attend.
20:29 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): my problem gregory is that we might get kicked bcause of you... otherwise I wouldnt care
20:29 unnamed: what was the problem with greece? didnt hear
20:30 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): i dindnt quite understood - samir said, it would be a not democratic country
20:30 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): Thomas: no, because of pp-cz guy
20:30 unnamed: Greece is not a democratic coyntry or PPGR?
20:30 Matic Urbanija (PP-SI): https://eu.piratenpad.de/Manchester-2012-Agenda
20:30 unnamed: the problem with greece is that we didnt officially choose our delegate
20:30 Koen De Voegt (PPBE): https://eu.piratenpad.de/Manchester-2012-Agenda
20:31 unnamed: he was appointed by one (of 7) member of the board
20:31 unnamed: in accordance to the rop of this conference
20:31 unnamed: but not officially in pp-gr
20:32 unnamed: in fact we just heard about him
20:32 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): no, there was a board decision 5 to 2 votes to appoint me as delegate. and this was entierely their initiative
20:32 unnamed: that is not correct. It was a 3 to 1 and 3 didnt bother to respond. thank you
20:33 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): and i was given a set of specific instructions from pp-gr board
20:33 unnamed: yes, that's correct
20:33 unnamed: but that was via email
20:33 unnamed: we were not informed at all
20:33 unnamed: as members
20:33 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): its not about believing... its about possibilities
20:33 Gregory Engels / Dichter (PP-DE): i can only say what was in the official email, i was not present on the said meeting of pp-gr board
20:33 unnamed: it was just a discussion
20:33 unnamed: whatever
20:33 unnamed: there wasnt an official board meeting
20:34 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): are you of the greek board?
20:34 unnamed: i am
20:34 unnamed: no i am not,
20:34 unnamed: I am just a member
20:34 unnamed: and i don't like what i see
20:34 unnamed: it's not personal either
20:35 unnamed: but i would have liked to know about my EU delegate
20:35 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): so board member, did you officially delegate the voting power to gregory, to your own chosing?
20:37 unnamed: he cannot take a decision like that, our statute forbids it
20:37 pappasadrian: there was no official decision, either positive or negative
20:37 pappasadrian: <- the board member
20:37 unnamed: every decision of the board must be ractified by members
20:37 Vojtěch Pikal (PP-CZ) PPI CoA: And its over. Good bye PPEU
20:39 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): will the greek board complain? could you keep me informed? thomas.bruderer@pirateparty.ch
20:39 zio donnie : I don't know about the board
20:40 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): yeah but pappasadrian might
20:40 zio donnie : but members did not take well the surprise
20:40 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): understandable, but if you would complain... Gregorys case will fall apart
20:40 zio donnie : yes well this is poorly thought out
20:40 zio donnie : i don't even know what case it is
20:41 zio donnie : i just found about it today
20:41 pappasadrian: thomas, i'll keep in touch
20:41 zio donnie : and we were not informed about anything at all
20:41 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): he say that PP-GR has officially delegatet him, if he would have lied ... that would be a major incident
20:41 pappasadrian: i'll ask for an urgent meeting on this
20:41 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): thank you very much pappasadrian
20:41 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): we definitly will support you
20:41 zio donnie : for what I know any and all delegations to people not voted by us are null and void
20:43 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): ok thanks will go now.
20:43 Thomas Bruderer (PP-CH): cya
21:45 Mariotti (PPGR) (Guest): gregory is engels been elected by a majority of mailing list as delegated by the board! mr adrian pappa was against the delegation.
21:47 Mariotti (PPGR) (BOARD) (Guest): The delegation is lawful and has also been tuned so!
21:47 Mariotti (PPGR) (BOARD) (Guest): just keep on!
22:14 pappasadrian: what about we sent an official email tomorrow morning, telling them whether it's official or not?

[adrian]

παρτε και το αρχειο της παραλληλης συζητησης στο irc, ετσι για αρχειακους λογους

<awkorama> I cannot write to pad
<awkorama> or maybe I don't understand
<awkorama> what are the new rules
<M2Ys4U> asking each party one by one apparently
<M2Ys4U> and results recorded directly in to pad
<awkorama> ok
<M2Ys4U> ok, which proposal do you want?
<M2Ys4U> original proposal or mab's?
<awkorama> The original
<jasio> vote N
<M2Ys4U> n = mab's version, yes?
<jasio> yes
<M2Ys4U> ok, good
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<VojtechPikal> so...
<awkorama> nazdar
<VojtechPikal> Anyone to help newly arrived delegate<
<awkorama> M2Ys4U:
<M2Ys4U> hi VojtechPikal
<VojtechPikal> hi
<awkorama> Isn't Franta Ulc the czech delegate ?
<VojtechPikal> what tools do we have to raise motions and so.
<VojtechPikal> Jes, he is. He has the woting right.
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<awkorama> czech invasion ftw
<VojtechPikal> Im here just to help him with legal issues
<M2Ys4U> write it in here, I'll raise the motion
<TomVymazal> hell yea
<VojtechPikal> ok.
<awkorama> vote Y
<VojtechPikal> When will be this motion raised> https://eu.piratenpad.de/Manchester-2012-Agenda
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<jasio> vote Y
<awkorama> vojta> These things were already discussed as far as I remember, in Barcelona, anyway the agenda has already been confirmed for Manchester (of course it can change)
<awkorama> f**king roman empire casted its vote yet ?
<VojtechPikal> then we wont to raise the motion to change of the agenda.
<awkorama> I don't have write permissions for the pad
<awkorama> I need it for voting
<jasio> register to PAD and notify Martina I think
<awkorama> register?? what is the URL for registration?
<M2Ys4U> I should be getting access to the pad so I can add it in for you if you want
<M2Ys4U> brb need to speak to chair
<awkorama> ok, I registered, I just need someone to confirm it, is Martina in this channel?
<M2Ys4U> back
<M2Ys4U> erm, no
<M2Ys4U> I don't think so
<jasio> nope, or just wait for confirmation - I was confirmed after about 5-8 minutes
<awkorama> off to grab a beverage
<VojtechPikal> So, I would like to propose two motions.
<VojtechPikal> 1) Acording to RoP of this conference Article 7(2)c I would like to table a new thing on the agenda.
<VojtechPikal> PLEASE CAN SOMEONE TELL IT TO THE CHAIR
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<M2Ys4U> ok
<M2Ys4U> we'll do that after this vote
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<M2Ys4U> did you hear that from the chair
<M2Ys4U> ?
<awkorama> back
<VojtechPikal> please repeat
<VojtechPikal> I heard but I would like to have it wrten
<M2Ys4U> Does your addition to the agenda relate to the court of arbitration?
<M2Ys4U> if it's to do with this section, we can add it now, otherwise we can add it tomorrow morning
<VojtechPikal> No. I would like to odd completely new section relating the "Scope of Ordinary and Associate Members"
<M2Ys4U> ok, I'll raise that after this vote
<VojtechPikal> I would be happy if it would be sheduled after this section, but its not neseserity.
<M2Ys4U> ok
<VojtechPikal> And I have another motion to table somthing to the agenda regarding this (Court of Arbitration) section.
<M2Ys4U> ok, type that out and I'll raise that as well
<VojtechPikal> Question: where can I read what is currentli voted upon?
<M2Ys4U> https://eu.piratenpad.de/Manchester-2012
<VojtechPikal> 1) Acording to RoP of this conference Article 7(2)c I would like to table a new thing on the agenda.
<awkorama> vote Y
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<VojtechPikal> Hlasuj ne - nechceme apointed Judge.
* Argure|AFK is now known as Argure
<VojtechPikal> I would like to add "and Associate Member" to this statement reading:
<VojtechPikal> "Each Ordinary Member Party and Associate Member may propose one Judge. "
<M2Ys4U> ok
<M2Ys4U> I'll raise that
<VojtechPikal> (I thing the world Party there is obstolete)
<VojtechPikal> *word
<M2Ys4U> ok, there are no associate parties anymore
<M2Ys4U> so the propsal wouldn't do anything
<M2Ys4U> are you happy just to stick with what's in the agenda?
<VojtechPikal> No, there are: previous conference:
<VojtechPikal> 15. The five types of members are 'Ordinary Members', 'Associate Members', 'Observer Members', 'Parliamentarian Members', 'Special Members' ⇲ Yes: 13, No: 0, Abs.: 3
<M2Ys4U> read down, that was overturned
<VojtechPikal> Nuber ofdecision where it states that there are no Associate members?
<M2Ys4U> ok, fine
<M2Ys4U> we'll vote on it
<awkorama> That is not true, a party might choose not to become ordinary even if it is eligible.
<awkorama> !
<awkorama> Vojtech is not a delegate as far as I know though.
<jasio> the proposal is not from me
<jasio> ok :0
<M2Ys4U> VojtechPikal@ What's the argument for having associate members also having the right to propose a judge?
<VojtechPikal> They are Mambers. (suposedly almost ful members) They should have to say in the controll
<VojtechPikal> Or beter to say to judge, court,
<VojtechPikal> (The real problem is that we dont know what Asociate members are suposed to be but we count with them.)
<awkorama> I am voting for Vojtech's proposal, please
<jasio> I'm voting for Each Ordinary Member and Associate Member Party may propose one Judge.
<M2Ys4U> ok
<VojtechPikal> Propose: "Any member of general assembly with proposing rights may propose one Judge."?
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<M2Ys4U> instead of your original proposal?
<VojtechPikal> as possibylity. but screw it now.
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<VojtechPikal> (Its what I wont but it depends on so many other things)
<VojtechPikal> But More importantly, dont forfgot to raise my nev section after thethis section.
<jasio> ok, I've got to take a small brake, for Poland Each Ordinary Member and Associate Member Party may propose one Judge. (so Matthias version) is Yes, the rest is NO
<jasio> also for Point 4 - How each Party will choose their Judge is their own business is also Y
<awkorama> still voting for vojtech's original counter proposal
<awkorama> so Y
<M2Ys4U> ok
<M2Ys4U> now we vote on the winner
<M2Ys4U> which is the original
<awkorama> vote y
<jasio> so for the winner Y
<awkorama> M2Ys4U: Y
<awkorama> can someone type it for SK ?
<M2Ys4U> "Each Ordinary Member Party may propose one Judge." passed
<awkorama> yeah, but it is not recorded
<awkorama> for PP-SK
<M2Ys4U> oh
<M2Ys4U> yeah
<M2Ys4U> sorry
<awkorama> in the pad
<M2Ys4U> done
<awkorama> cheers mate
<awkorama> vote /Y
<awkorama> voting YES
<M2Ys4U> break for 10 minutes
<pappasadrian> does anyone have a copy of the rules of procedure handy?
<awkorama> https://eu.piratenpad.de/Manchester-2012-RoP
<pappasadrian> thanks
<pappasadrian> can i pose a procedural question to the chairman of the conference?
<pappasadrian> if so, how?
<awkorama> through this channel
<awkorama> which party do you represent ?
<pappasadrian> none
<pappasadrian> however, i'm a member of the board of PP-GR
<pappasadrian> my question is about the validity of the delegate of PP-GR
<awkorama> that should be raised asap
<awkorama> M2Ys4U: ping
<pappasadrian> did Gregory Engels, alleged delegate of PP-GR, present written authorization, according to 1.4 of RoP?
<pappasadrian> If so, by whom was this authorization provided?
<pappasadrian> (or should I wait until the break ends?)
<awkorama> M2Ys4U is the general proxy for remotes, let's just wait until he gets to the terminal
<pappasadrian> alright
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<M2Ys4U> ok guys, sorry
<M2Ys4U> shit kinda hit the fan...
<awkorama> everything alright ?
<M2Ys4U> pappasadrian: I recieved an e-mail from Mariotti Giorgio giving him the delegation
<pappasadrian> alright, thanks
<M2Ys4U> awkorama: Well, kinda
<pappasadrian> although this is not in contrast to your rules of procedures
<pappasadrian> i can verify that there was no decision by the board of PP-GR or the body of PP-GR for such an authorization
<awkorama> who is Mariotti Giorgio then ?
<pappasadrian> member of our board
<pappasadrian> we discussed it briefly by mail
<pappasadrian> but, as a matter of fact, only 3 of 7 members of the board agreed to the delegation.
<awkorama> what;s up with the nice bloke resigning ?
<M2Ys4U> it'll become apparent in a moment
<pappasadrian> as i already mentioned, this is not as much a problem of this conference, as it is an internal issue of PP-GR, apparently
<pappasadrian> do as you will
<awkorama> I reckon PP-EU has no means of checking the inner workings of every other pirate parties
<pappasadrian> yes, and that's why im not asking for a cancellation of the delegation or anything
<pappasadrian> the rules of procedure are clear enough
<pappasadrian> i'm just asking the delegates to keep this in mind.
<awkorama> Discussion> I don't agree. court of arbitration of PPEU would only have power over bodies inside PPEU, not its sovereign members.
<awkorama> M2Ys4U: ping
<M2Ys4U> awkorama: hi, yes
<M2Ys4U> I'm trying to catch the new chair's eye to raise that point
<awkorama> I will add an example
<awkorama> Discussion> If the council of PPEU is acting against statuses of PPEU, the CoA would have power over it.
<awkorama> When a member of PPEU would act against statuses, the CoA could dismiss the party from PPEU but nothing more really.
<awkorama> PP SK
<awkorama> vote N
<awkorama> (btw you will still proxy for me, whatever comes out of this, right) ?
<awkorama>
<M2Ys4U> Yes
<M2Ys4U> That's fine, I aspire to be as professional as possible
<awkorama> seriously thought, I am really sorry for this. From my point of view though, it is the decision of PP-UK, not of PPEU.
<awkorama> the professionalism is appreciated.
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<davidd> is the Coa the reason the chair resigned?
<awkorama> What exactly is happening now ?
<MCvaatdoek> a break
<Argure> we're waiting for the ninja's to swoop down through the ceiling and take everyone to an arena for a deathmatch
<Argure>
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<M2Ys4U|real> Hi guys
<M2Ys4U|real> switched clients
<awkorama> ok
<awkorama> vote N - do not skip
<jasio> vote N
<M2Ys4U|real> Was that the previous vote
<M2Ys4U|real> on skipping?
<jasio> yes on skipping
<jasio> I've read it with some delay like now
<jasio> but its ok
<Argure> what this guy is saying
<Argure> I approve
<M2Ys4U|real> there's a delay, are you talking about Mab?
<Argure> simply because a member *state* is not a member of the European Union
<M2Ys4U|real> "selectively removing" etc
<Argure> it does not immediately mean that that state's Pirate Party shares the same views.
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<Argure> I could imagine the Russian or Switzerland or whatever Pirate Party would actually want to *encourage* international coöperation
<awkorama> umlaut on o makes it so much better
<Argure> hell, the whole point of the PPEU is international cooperation
<pappasadrian> M2Ys4U|real: my previous remark is relevant right now
<Argure> and yet there is discussion on whether or not some *European* states should be disallowed to vote?
<Argure> this does not compute
<pappasadrian> ppeu is not for international stuff
<pappasadrian> ppeu is for european stuff
<Argure> yeah, I'm aware of that
<pappasadrian> it's quite hard to define what is europe
<Argure> but it is still a cooperative effort by multiple individual member states
<Argure> hell, the EU in itself is exactly that
<Argure> so why should a potential member party be disallowed when they actually *want* to cooperate internationally?
<Argure> just because their government, previous or current, decided not to be part of the EU?
<awkorama> was there a straw poll ?
<MCvaatdoek> pappasadrian: it´s easy actually: or it´s defined by geography or by with countries are in the EU
<Argure> if the PPRU or PPSW wanted to push nationally for European cooperation, would it not be strange if they were disallowed membership in the PPEU?
<pappasadrian> MCvaatdoek: there are a lot of grey areas.
<pappasadrian> ex. russia, turkey, switzerland
<Argure> all three are geographically in Europe
<Argure> even if partial
<Argure> and in any case they are affected by the decisions that take place in the EU
<MCvaatdoek> pappasadrian: yeah okay, but if you say no to Switersland you have to say no to Russia, Norway and Turky. If you say yes to one off them you have to say yes to all
<Argure> pappasadrian: lets turn this around
<Argure> if Greece decided to pull out of the EU, would *you* be happy if the PPEU simply decided 'ok you're not part of the EU anymore k thx baibai'
<Argure> even though the PPGR does not agree with that decision?
<Argure> Pirate Party ≠ state
<pappasadrian> i agree
<pappasadrian> i'm just trying to clarify this
<jasio> yes, but one of the main purpose of PP-EU is EU Elections, so basically only EU countries will have something to do with that
* burnoutberni (~Thunderbi@91.118.rq.hzl) has joined #PPEU
<jasio> for other countries there is still PP Int
<Argure> so what if Greece pulled out from the EU?
<pappasadrian> so it's a matter of defining purposes
<Argure> and the PPGR does not agree with that decision
<awkorama> Discussion> Wouldn't it be easier to just include those pirate parties that have joining/staying in EU as part of their program ?
<Argure> and pushes nationally for entry in the EU?
<Argure> replace with whatever country
<MCvaatdoek> jasio: difference is: PPEU is political based, PPI issn´t
<Argure> hell, there's been talk of the Netherlands pulling out of the EU
<Argure> which we do not agree with
<awkorama> M2Ys4U|real: ping
<pappasadrian> maybe a good solution, Argure, would be to have many kinds of membership. as ppeu already does
<M2Ys4U|real> awkorama: Yeah, I'm putting you back in the queue
<awkorama> thx
<jasio> we already had really long discusion on this point at PP Int GA in Prague where we've signed some kind of memorandum for PP EU
<Argure> pappasadrian: a concept I inherently have to disagree with
<Argure> as it violates the principe of 'every pirate is equal'
<pappasadrian> yes, because it becomes undemocratic
<Argure> and so is every PP in my opinion
<Argure> it's also an arbitrary division
<pappasadrian> but, what if PPJP says they want to join EU?
<Argure> PPJP is not even arguably geographically in Europe
<Argure> Russia, Switzerland, Norway etc. are
<MCvaatdoek> Argure: try this case: Do you want PPBE (belgium) to have influence to the Dutch PP politics?
<Argure> no
<Argure> however
<MCvaatdoek> because if members like Russia are joining PPEU they have influence on EU politics
<Argure> I would have Belgium to have influence on Benelux politics
<MCvaatdoek> witch they are not part off
<MCvaatdoek> thats the discussion
<pappasadrian> what about Israel then?
<MCvaatdoek> allthough I understand your moral view
<pappasadrian> they are europe-friendly
<awkorama> is there a pirate party of israel ?
<MCvaatdoek> pappasadrian: since when is Israel European ?
<pappasadrian> they even take part in eurovision
<Argure> that's a good factor!
<MCvaatdoek> pappasadrian: even Kazachstan compets in eurovision
<MCvaatdoek>
<Argure> 'part of eurovision? k then you can join!'
<pappasadrian> that's actually not a bad idea
<MCvaatdoek> lol
<pappasadrian> no, seriously
<Argure> someone tell whichever woman is speaking right now
<Argure> that she is awesome
<awkorama> yeah, or whoever plays european football
<Argure> for relaying almost exactly what I tried to say.
<pappasadrian> i think it's muriel, ppcat
<awkorama> championship
<MCvaatdoek> PPcat is Spain
<M2Ys4U|real> last vote, then end of meeting
<MCvaatdoek> why are there representatives of Spain and Catalonië
<MCvaatdoek> ?
<M2Ys4U|real> Spain did not send a deleate
<MCvaatdoek> ah
<MCvaatdoek> so Cat came in there place
<Argure> so if we did not send Samir as delegate we could have any regional party represent both the regional and national PP?
<Argure> k brb, firing Samir and Rodger and then sending whatever regional party that agrees with whatever I say
<MCvaatdoek> lol
<awkorama> are we voting on https://eu.piratenpad.de/Manchester-2012-Agenda ?
<awkorama> if yes, vote N
<awkorama> M2Ys4U:
<awkorama> M2Ys4U|real:
<M2Ys4U|real> ok
<MCvaatdoek> awkorama: can I vote? U like to vote
<M2Ys4U|real> meeting over
<awkorama> sorry, I am a remote delegate
* M2Ys4U|real has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)
<MCvaatdoek> where are all the motions that were voted on today?
<M2Ys4U> thanks guys, back again 10am tomorrow
<awkorama> thanks https://eu.piratenpad.de/Manchester-2012
<jasio> thanks for proxing

[Kotsos]

Εμένα γιατί η συμπεριφορά του Gregory, μου θύμισε κάποιον από το κόμμα μας;;;;
Μήπως λέτε γι'αυτό να έκριναν τα μέλη της ΔΕ ότι θα ήταν κατάλληλος για να μας εκπροσωπήσει;;;;;;

Διονύση και Στράτο, πρίν τρείς μήνες είχα μιλήσει για γερμανολατρία κάποιων που πάει να μας κάνει παράρτημα των Γερμανών πειρατών και κάποιοι πέσανε να με φάνε.
Εξακολουθείτε να αμφισβητείτε τις ικανότητες της φανουρόπιτας που ψήνω κάθε πρωί;;;;;;

[zio_donnie]

Εγώ εκείνο που βλέπω είναι πως είναι αμφιλεγόμενη φιγούρα. Σε κάθε περίπτωση δεν θα έπρεπε να ενημερωθούμε για τις θέσεις του κόμματος στα διεθνή φόρα; Γιατί θέλουμε να αποκλείσουμε την Ελβετία; Τι ακριβώς λέει η εντολή του;

[hrsfpgyjrnptrd]

Μήπως λέτε γι'αυτό να έκριναν τα μέλη της ΔΕ ότι θα ήταν κατάλληλος για να μας εκπροσωπήσει;;;;;;

Κάτσε γιατί ούτε αυτό δεν ξέρουμε ακόμα, έχουμε άποψη από 2 μέλη που ο ένας λέει ότι υπήρξε απόφαση και ο άλλος ότι δεν υπήρξε.
Αλλά ξαναλέω το πιο σημαντικό δεν είναι ποιος πήγε εκεί αλλά γιατί πήγε αφού δεν είχαμε άποψη και θέσεις για να ψηφίσουμε και να συμμετέχουμε.
Το ότι ο ίδιος λέει ότι είχε σαφείς οδηγίες από την ΔΕ το αφήνω ασχολίαστο.

[Kotsos]

Αδριανέ μία ερώτηση γιατί είμαι λίγο άσχετος με το θέμα.

Το PPEU μεταφράζεται ως Pirate Party European Union
Η Pirate Party Europe;

Αν είναι το πρώτο ως συλλογικό όργανο των χωρών που συμμετάσχουν στην Ευρωβουλή τότε καλώς πετάνε τους μη ΕΕ έξω.
Αν είναι το δεύτερο τότε όλες οι χώρες που θεωρούνται Ευρώπη ακόμα και οι γκρίζες όπως πχ Ρωσσία, Τουρκία, κ.α. Θα πρέπει να συμπεριλαμβάνονται.
Εγώ επειδή μέχρι τώρα νόμιζα το δεύτερο θεωρώ απαράδεκτο να αποκλειστεί ο οποιοσδήποτε ακόμα και η Τουρκία ( για το Ισραήλ αν και μέλος της eurovision έχω κάποιες επιφυλάξεις αν και δεν μπορώ να δώ πως θα επιβιώσει σε μια PP Middle East)


Headofthebored πόσα χαμογελάκια θέλεις να σου βάλω να καταλάβεις ότι αστειεύομαι;;;;
Προσπαθώ να κάνω λίγη πλάκα γιατί από το πρωί που αντέδρασα για τον ίδιο ακριβώς λόγο που αναφέρεις, έχω ακούσει διάφορα και έχουν αφεθεί να αιωρούνται διάφορα υπονοούμενα για το άτομό μου.

Ps. Μου αρέσει που κάποιοι ευρωλιγούρηδες λέγαν εδώ μέσα ότι θα γινόμασταν ρεζίλι αν αντιδρούσε με στην Μακεδονία.
Εκει μέσα γίνονται Σόδομα και Γόμορα

[ekfrasi]

http://piratepad.net/JxM4hu8HrE
https://piratenpad.de/p/ppeuprogram
http://ppeu.net/
http://ppeu.net/?p=339